(My Yahoo Piece on Infy results)
Infosys announced Q2 results (September 2011) today, beating expectations substantially. Revenues were up 8% from last quarter to 8099 cr. and Net profits up 9.73% from last year, to 1906 cr.
(My Yahoo Piece on Infy results)
Infosys announced Q2 results (September 2011) today, beating expectations substantially. Revenues were up 8% from last quarter to 8099 cr. and Net profits up 9.73% from last year, to 1906 cr.
The Infosys stock is down 3.5% to 2,500 as we speak, and it’s a result day tomorrow. Result days are big for the INFY stock; the chart of the day shows the movement of the INFY stock the day before, and on the result day itself.
The last five quarters have seen huge negative moves on result announcements. Probably this has spooked investors already? But honestly the day before has little predictive value: of the last 17 quarters only 8 quarters have seen the earlier day move in same direction as the results day – and even there, magnitudes haven’t been enough for prediction.
From my post at Yahoo:
Infosys announced Q1 FY 2012 results today. In a dull quarter, they produced a Quarter on Quarter (QoQ) increase of 3.2% in revenue, with net profits falling about 5% from the March quarter. The Year-on-Year (YoY) Net Profit growth printed 15% due to a lower Q1 last year. Read the rest of this entry »
The can of worms might just be opened. Infosys Technologies filed that it has been subpoena'd by a Grand Jury in the US, to provide information about its B-1 visas to employees. A U.S. Employee filed a lawsuit against INFY after he refused to help issue temporary B-1 visas for certain workers, and this seems to have broadened into a Grand Jury investigation.
The "whistleblower", Jack Palmer Jr, was hired by the US as a Principal Consultant and has said that his managers asked him to write invitations for B-1 visa applicants, stating for legal purposes that they were coming for the short-term. According to WSJ:
Mr. Palmer alleged that Infosys managers asked him to write welcome letters for employees coming on B-1 visas to back up the case that they were on short-term visits for legal purposes, rather than stating the reality–that they had full-time jobs lined up in the U.S. The complaint says Mr. Palmer “was concerned about the accuracy of the letters and the legality of these employees working in the United States.”
He blew the whistle with the human resources department and refused the write the letters, the complaint says, after which company managers chastised him on a conference call for “not being ‘a team player.’”
B-1 visas are essentially business visas. They're usually clubbed with "B-2", or pleasure visit visas and the official stamp is B-1/B-2. Here, my software background comes into play. Typical B-1s are issued for 10 years. Each visit must be for a specific reason - a conference, a visit to a customer, or something of that sort. Each visit will be "stamped" at the port of entry into the U.S. with an exit expiry date - usually a few days after you plan to leave, but a maximum of three months. Obviously, three months at a time is enough to do most business related activities.
What you're not allowed to do is to work for money. You could attend a conference. You could meet customers. But if you get paid, or model for a fashion show, it's work. For that, you need an H-1B. And you need an H-1B even if you do work at a customer's office. Obviously you might help solve a few problems, but it shouldn't be that you're there from Day 1 coding, and leave on Day 90 after you're done coding.
But that is exactly how most software companies in India work. They send people to the US on short term B-1 visas, and get them to actually do work. The client pays for this work, usually to the company, which pays its employee back home. The usual compensation is: full Indian salary in your Indian account and a per-day allowance of $50-$60 to the US. Hotel costs are paid by the customer directly or indirectly.
The average Indian Software Engineer who's being sent there is probably getting Rs. 600K per year. If you send him on a 90 day trip, he gets to a) experience foreign travel and b) earn $4500. Sure, he has expenses, but damn, he will live on Maggi if he needs to and save at least $3000 = Rs. 140K which is pretty big.
I know. I've done this. (except save that $3000; let's face it, I love life too much. Also they have great steaks) I was working for a large company when I was sent on a three month B-1 visa to the US, where I worked - I actually compiled code, built stuff etc. for the customer. I found out when I was there that working on a B-1 was probably illegal, but the maximum I could get was deported which was totally acceptable. (Boston area in winter? I'll take a traffic-snarled Bangalore any day)
So if it's illegal why do companies do it? It's cheaper. The clients are billed $200 per day (or so) which is cheaper than hiring someone with that skill locally. Plus, no insurance. No retirement benefits. And no taxes because the US entity is either paying per-diems in cash, or paying the Indian company. The Indian co doesn't need to deduct Indian taxes on the per-diems it pays out, because they are effectively a reimbursement. It's all very cost-effective. Lastly, it's faster; once you have a B-1, you can keep going for 3 months whenever required.
But the point is: It's wrong. And everyone's doing it. Clients pay for such visits and no US taxes (or indeed Indian taxes on the perdiems) are deducted. Work is done. It's so bloody easy to prove, because it is done on such massive volume that there is no way to hide it.
Now, has Infosys violated the spirit (and perhaps the letter) of the law by sending people to work on B-1s? I wouldn't be surprised if everyone here, even those with a infosys.com email address, are nodding their heads. But if they are indicted, does it open a can of worms? I think it depends on what happens.
The counter argument is that US H-1B requirements are onerous and time consuming - the WSJ article talks about a guy that came to India to get married, applied for a new H-1B visa and after two months, got rejected. So they would rather send people on a B-1, especially when it's short term.
But try and reason out why H-1B's are difficult to get. Because for one, there's 10% unemployment in the US, they want companies to hire locally. For another, we want to send too many people there, way beyond the 65,000 limit.
Macmanus' letter also indicates that the State Department may be getting ready to remove or substantially change a provision in its rules that now allows workers to use a "B-1 in lieu of H-1B visa" if specific criteria are met.
(Macmanus represents the State Dept).
This B-1 in lieu of H-1B is a different visa - although I did qualify for the purpose - than the B-1. That's not the one being mentioned here, I think - it's the regular B-1.
In effect, this case will impact everyone; even US companies from the Googles to the Microsofts may be at the receiving end of a negative decision. Will that influence the US jury and change its mind? Will that be the clinching piece? We'll have to wait and see.
Disclosure: No positions on any Indian IT stocks. But increasingly, going short seems to be a good idea.
Infosys announced results today and the markets are not happy, with the stock down severely. I don't think the results are necessarily worse than expected - after all, they met expectations having given a full-year guidance of 119 on EPS given last quarter. (Actual was 119.4)
The bigger deal seems to be that Mohandas Pai has quit. The CFO who managed a great run in the stock through the early 2000s, and later took over the HR function has now quit the company and the board. It looks like he wasn't going to get the top job - and with his profile nothing less would have done. I think this is good for both Pai and Infosys, because a finance genius shouldn't really be in the HR top role, and for Infy it's time to groom the next CFO. For Pai, there's no need for money, and his next venture will be awaited. I hope he gets into the software product space or into angel investing.
Back to Infosys. The stock tanked nearly 10% today, and I don't know why. Don't tell me it's the results. Please. Last year also they announced crap results. Last year, the stock went up. Read my post. (Heck I even made some money on it) This is utterly bizarre, unless the investors are mourning the loss of Mr. Pai from the board of a company with 130,000 employees.
Quarter Revenues went up 22% year on year to 7250 cr. Net profit at 1,818 cr. was up 13%.
Full Year Revenues are up 20.9% up at 27,501 cr. from 22,742 cr. This is pretty much as per their December guidance. EPS for the full year is Rs. 119.4, up just 9.5% from the 109 rupee EPS last year.
Guidance for the year forward is a revenue of 32,270 cr. (highest) and an EPS of 128.21, which is a growth of 7.3% on EPS.
The graph below contains the EPS growth both quarterly YoY (that is, this quarter compared to last year same quarter) and TTM YoY (which is trailing 12 month EPS, now versus one year ago).
The growth in Earnings per share is still quite low, at the 10% mark and even the quarterly growth (comparison has tapered off to under 15%. That is par for the course in such a large company I guess.
What's worrying really is that valuations didn't follow. The stock price has quoted at a P/E of 20+ for nearly all of last year.
You might think that the company has lots of cash which needs to be factored in. They have 16,000 crores in cash, which for the 58 cr. shares in issue comes up to about Rs. 300 per share, and reduces the P/E by about 3 (That is, P/E without the cash). Even that is above 22.
Yes, you can give a premium for management quality. I wouldn't do much though - you would give like a 1 or 2 higher P/E, that's about it.
Even with the nearly 10% fall today, at 2996, the stock is overvalued.
For a company that makes money out of brainpower (or, people-as-robots, whatever you want to call it) the biggest thing you want is people. A continuous flow of people. Pure numbers are silly because one smart guy can do the work of 10 dumb guys (and Infy has 40% "fixed-price" projects, so it's not as much about billing per head now). But it's all we have to work with, so here are the numbers:
As you can see, the employee additions have been coming down. Net Addition as a percentage of total is also now about 2-3% per quarter. For the last 3 years (since March 2008) employee headcount is up 45%, meaning we only have about 12-13% per year of growth.
But then, March and June are typical off quarters for hiring with the bulk coming in Sep/Dec every year. Overall this year, net addition in pure numbers and percentages has been higher than last year (17K in FY11 versus 9K in FY 10) but it's still lower than earlier years (FY08: 19K, FY07: 19K). I'm not sure this model will keep working if they don't have the "inventory" - i.e. the masses they need to keep doing projects.
Considering billing rates stay constant, your employee count makes your growth. Mr. Pai didn't necessarily do a great job pushing up employee counts. Unlike money, employees talk to each other and leave when you treat them badly. So the brilliant CFO skills may not apply to HR. But honestly, the slowdown in Infy hiring was inevitable; there is their own size against them, there are more nimble competitors who now have money and will poach, and the funnel of hire-able candidates hasn't increased quite as dramatically.
Well, first, that's my opinion. I think there are too many people who buy it because it's like 8% of Nifty in terms of weight and it can do no wrong because of its fantastic past. Those factors you can't change unless they change by themselves.
But on pure value, there isn't that much. If you consider they even make a Rs. 130 EPS next year (2011-12) then from 2008-09, the 3 year CAGR is just 7.57%. The Five Year CAGR - which included 07-08 and 08-09, both fairly good years for the company - is still just under 14%.
For a company doing 10-14%, and slowing down, would you really pay a 25 P/E? Or even a 20 P/E? Forget management quality - it needs to show in the results at least over a five year period. Forget cash - cash is a burden if you won't acquire even in the face of slowing-down growth. (Plus, you then have to remove the 1,200 cr. of "other income" also) My answer, like that in ICICI Bank's case, is "It depends."
I mean, if fundamentals were any useful, I would actually use them. When you see companies with a sub-10 P/E growing at over 30% a year, and their P/Es shrink as their companies grow, and other companies like Infosys become darlings because at some random time in the past they had done something good, and get 25 P/Es even when they haven't done jack-shit for five years: I can't really say fundamentals are valuable.
Looks even more bleak. Now I get into serious opinion territory.
The west isn't in great shape. Yes, they have extend and pretend, but that only lasts so long. Already, Greece is showing signs of cracking. Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Iceland - all are showing signs of strain, and we don't even see the headline about how badly their strain will show on Belgium. The US is very intertwined in all of this, and the US has a budget deficit that has our corrupt politicians salivating.
Western economies, and especially the western financial sector, may not have a great thing in the next few years. With interest rates starting to go up, and inflation in commodities starting to pinch, there will be budget cuts, and part of that will be IT cuts. A lot of discretionary spends go out the window.
Add to that my longer term theory that the US Dollar will deteriorate and the rupee will appreciate. With almost negligible local presence and the gross inability to think for India, companies like Infosys (as compared to TCS or HCLTech) will have an enormous amount of difficulting moving growth over. They'll become utilities and utilities get a P/E of 10.
Rant over. The stock's not bad. But it's wildly overpriced, overrated and blah blah. I would short it if the technicals break down some more, but the position size on each lot of 125 is too much - at nearly 4 lakhs a lot, a standard move can hose my capital. But yes, there are put option positions that might be attractive (though expensive today).
I must stop making these Infy posts. They lead nowhere.
I'm not long Infy or (darn) short it.
Infy announces results. They aren’t that great.
Graphs and tables. Excuse the rusty excel skills.
What’s worrying is the TTM EPS growth – it’s looking up slightly but it has been below the much required 20%. Remember, this is a stock at 3,300. That gives it a trailing P/E of 28 or more. We haven’t seen a 28% EPS growth for the last 6 quarters.
Outlook for the next quarter is a 15% EPS growth, but for the FY 2011, the EPS growth will be 9%. That’s horrendously low for a stock valued at that much. I understand a premium for good management, and an extra for the 15,000 cr. in cash they hold (Rs. 300 per share).
My View:
Disclosure: One account has long exposure. Will have to trim it.
Infosys announced their Q4 results, with a profit DECLINE year-on-year, of 0.9% to 1,600 cr. EPS has gone down to Rs. 28.02 from 28.33, which is a 1% decline. Revenues are up 5.5% over last year, ending at 5944 cr. for the quarter, and while profit before taxes was up 6.5%, taxes went from 302 cr. to 441 cr., which pushed the profit down.
For the whole year, Infy’s revenues went to 22,742 cr., a 5% move up.
Profits post tax were at 6,219 cr., a 4.1% increase. EPS, with stock options going up, went up a lower 3.9% to 109.
At the current price of nearly 2800, the stock quotes at a 25+ P/E.
What’s disconcerting is their guidance. Infy will earn an EPS of about Rs. 24.5 next quarter, they say, which is a Year-on-Year DECLINE of 9%. And it’s not one-off – for the whole next year, they expect EPS growth to range from –2% to +2.1%. Technically, for TWO full years, there will be no EPS growth of any sort.
As expected, stock markets loved these results, for reasons that eventually the media will quote as “Infosys goes up as butterflies flap their wings praising results”. You see, “WE DON”T KNOW WHY INFOSYS WENT UP. REALLY.” is not a good tag line on TV channels or financial web sites, because if we realize the experts are as clueless as us, we might as well stop watching them on TV, which makes a) the experts really fidgety and b) this a really long sentence.
I, on the other hand, will happily admit I’m a moron, and I didn’t even see Infy results till after market hours, and I really don’t know why the stock went up. Honest. In an ironical twist, my system asked me to please go long Infosys 2800 calls, which I did (Bought at 27.5, sold at 46) and promptly earned a gazillion percent.Technically 60%, but I have permission to exaggerate.
And alook at the one year chart:
Volumes do not look very exciting at the moment, but the primary trend is still up.
Feeling smug but obviously this was an outlier trade. Such an opportunity does not come every day.
What I can say to traders: Be Very Careful When Being Short Straddles. The volatility looks like it will explode very soon.
“We have asked our recruitment staff not to poach anybody from Satyam. The company is in the middle of a crisis and people will jump ship,” Infosys Technologies HR, education & research and administration director TV Mohandas Pai told ET. On Wednesday, Infosys had ruled out any possibility of taking over Satyam. “We will not touch such a tainted company,” Infosys founder and non-executive chairman N R Narayana Murthy had said.You don't want the company, understandable. You don't want the employees? What kind of stupid logic is that?
The idea that by not hiring them will make the employees stick to Satyam is silly. If they want to leave, there's not much Infy can do to influence that choice. And if the industry gangs up against Satyam employees, won't it be a shame?
Those employees that couldn't have participated in the scam are free to go where they choose. By denying them a job, Infy is only shooting itself in the foot. The best of the Satyam stock will go to other companies, and there are indeed some excellent people in there.
Tomorrow there will be no Satyam. But there will be a memory of how Infy became an asshole. Those employees will remember.
But it might just be that Infy has no place for more employees anyhow. These are bad times, but it's inexcusable to make silly statements like we wont hire from Satyam. You will, you always have, and not doing so jeopardises only you. Loyalty cannot be forced on anyone. Infy will be wise to understand that early.
Update: Since Infy mentioned "poach" versus "hire", I must apologise for the heavy remark. Yet, having been in the circles, I know there is hardly a line between "poach" and "hire" - if you get a resume from a recruiter, does it amount to poaching? How do you know the recruiter - who gets one month's income as compensation - did not approach the employee first? How can you prove you didn't poach? The obvious answer: you cannot. Even if you ask the employee he'll say no, I didn't get poached; he wants the Infy job. So what happens? If the dictat is rigid, Infy HR will not hire anyone from Satyam. If it's not rigid then this is all false posturing anyhow. Either ways it does Infy no good.
Copyright (C) Deepak Shenoy 2011
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